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    <title>StreamTeam Forum</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/25/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Discussion area for StreamTeam and AW National River Database issues]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:37:51 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15989/#msg-15989</link>
      <author>KF8MO</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Agreed, some rapids actually get easier at higher water, etc.  When I refer to the Lower Yough not being Class III at 6 ft, I don't mean just because it's big and pushy (though it certainly is).  Some of the rapids in fact actually wash out almost completely; Double Hydraulic for example is much easier.  Others however become more complex and difficult, with definite must moves and significant consequences for missing them.  As per the Class IV definition, some become &quot;intense, powerful... with large unavoidable waves and holes&quot;, etc.  Water conditions definitely make self-rescue difficult, and if you swim you might be able to find your boat down at Connellsville... or not!

The point is that the river doesn't just become &quot;more&quot; of the same stuff at higher level, many of the rapids undergo significant qualitative changes that change their ratings (as well as change the lines).  It's not necessarily true of all rivers, it really depends on the structure of what forms the rapids as to whether they flush out or get more complicated.]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15989/#msg-15989</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:37:51 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15949/#msg-15949</link>
      <author>rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well, that does enter into one of my other 'pet peeves'. Just because a river is running 'big', does not mean the rating (inherent difficulty level) goes up. And in cases where it does go up, [i]generally[/i] I can see it bumping up just a half step or one full rating. It is highly unlikely that a stream would go from class II (at 'normal' 'usual' flows) to class IV or V (at any high boatable flow).

If you look at the ratings descriptions (http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/do-op/id/safety:start#class_i_rapids) and actually read them CAREFULLY and thoroughly, and really critically assess things, I hope you would agree with this assertion. In fact, particularly for the lower rated rivers/rapids (up to class III-) it is almost as likely that high water may actually diminish the inherent difficulty, as the river/rapids may just 'wash out', or alternate lines open up. Again, critical reading even for just a class III suggests (with my emphasis added in bold) &quot;[i]moderate, irregular waves [b]which may be difficult to avoid[/b][/i]&quot; and &quot;[i][b]Complex maneuvers[/b] in fast current and good boat control in [b]tight passages[/b] or around ledges are often required[/i]&quot;. So, just because perhaps a BIG hole develops somewhere (at high water), doesn't necessarily mean the rapids is necessarily a class III or IV. If you can easily see it, and a reasonably experienced/skilled boater can easily get around it, the river/rapids may still only merit a class II. Without a doubt, the river will be more 'pushy', and it may put somewhat (or even significantly) higher demand on the skill and confidence you need to successfully negotiate it. Those not experienced in high-water runs may be way out of their comfort zone. However, the inherent difficulty of the river/rapids is likely to bump up only slightly (again, a half- to a full-step).

Parallel to this idea, I think too many people have the idea that anything rated class II means 'beginner whitewater', and that virtually any beginner/novice boater should be absolutely fine on it. As if ALL you need to know is the class rating. (Unfortunately, that idea is reinforced in the cited AW page on ratings, by the fact that the headings state &quot;Class II Rapids: Novice&quot;, &quot;Class III: Intermediate&quot;, &quot;Class IV: Advanced&quot;, etc.) In fact, all experienced boaters know that a whole combination of factors all enter into the equation of how 'beginner appropriate' (or, for that matter, how appropriate for some particular intermediate or more experienced paddler) some rapids or stretch of river is. Rating (class) is but one measure, one consideration. Whether the rapids are short (pool/drop) or long (continuous) is another important consideration. Whether the river and rapids are wide, open, and unobstructed, or complex, boulder bed, ledge-drops, constricted, narrow, steep-walled dells/gorge, etc, is another important consideration. Whether any bigger drops or blind drops exist, and whether one can easily get out to scout them, is obviously quite important. And, yes, flow (and the boater's specific experience and comfort level with higher flow) is an important consideration.

So, a more appropriate idea would be Class II, low -to-moderate flow, pool-drop, fairly open, 'boat-scoutable' rivers and rapids are 'beginner whitewater'. Class II, high flow, continuous, perhaps only minimal shoreline eddies, and difficult (or impossible) banks to get out to scout or portage, is NOT beginner whitewater! (And, all that [i]could[/i] fit into the class II description.) In fact, I could cite a good number of rivers or rapids (in the upper Midwest, where I do almost all my boating) which I would say rate class II (at fairly 'normal', moderate flows) but which are NOT what I would call 'beginner whitewater', either due to being fairly continuous, or being small, intimate creeks having few eddies, or being in steep-walled banks (with virtually no chance for recovery of a swimmer and their gear). Beginners could do them, but only if accompanied by experienced boaters.]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15949/#msg-15949</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:54:46 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15931/#msg-15931</link>
      <author>matt</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Thanks for the explanation, Rob. I've listed this as an FAQ Question in [url=http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/do-op/id/rivers:sk:instructions]StreamTeam 101[/url].]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15931/#msg-15931</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 05:52:31 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15923/#msg-15923</link>
      <author>KF8MO</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I like the idea of rating by flow.  I paddle the Lower Yough a lot, and it's generally said to be Class III.  It is, at normal summer rafting levels (1.7-2.2 feet).  At 6.6 feet, it's most definitely not Class III, either in skills required or in consequences!]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15923/#msg-15923</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:23:46 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15863/#msg-15863</link>
      <author>rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[It 'should' mean the former, I.E., &quot;mostly Class III and IV, but has one Class V drop on it,&quot; However, to be completely honest, since the river pages are the result of contributions by volunteer StreamTeam members, there is unfortunately no guarantee that this interpretation stands in all cases. There may be some sections on the database for which the StreamTeam member lists a rating which intends to cover the range of difficulty at the range of flows the river may be boated. This is unfortunate, especially now, since (on the whole river, not on each particular rapids listed, if they have been detailed for the run) we do now have the provision for the ratings to be tied to flow (on the rivers which have online gauges available). Thus, for example, you may see a river listed as class II-III when the flow is in the lower end of it's boatable range (let's say maybe 200-500 cfs), listed as class III when the flow is in the middle of recommended boatable range (maybe 500-1000 cfs), and listed as class III-IV or IV when flows are in the high end of recommended range. We should all get away from this notion that we can categorically state that such-and-such a river IS class II or class III or whatever, without at the same time specifying AT WHAT FLOW. After all, when you look at the &quot;Standard Rated Rapids&quot; list (http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/safety:class1benchmarkrapids), you will see not only the river and rapids name, but a specified flow/level. The same concept should apply to classifying or characterizing the whole river.]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15863/#msg-15863</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:11:45 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>key to rapid ratings?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15854/#msg-15854</link>
      <author>KF8MO</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I'm sure this is covered somewhere on the AW site but I'm not having any luck finding it.  What is the meaning of a rating of, for example, Class III-IV(V)?  Does that mean the stretch is mostly Class III and IV, but has one Class V drop on it, or that it's Class V at higher water levels, or what?  Thanks for any enlightenment.  -Lee]]></description>
      <category>StreamTeam Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/25,15854,15854/#msg-15854</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:11:29 -0400</pubDate>
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