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    <title>BWA-Speak</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/9/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[General BWA Message and Milling Area]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:43:41 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:43:41 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>BWA-Speak</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6797/#msg-6797</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Ok all.  At the SC, it was decided that we would accept email votes for the officer meeting on Tuesday and that for lack of time, we would keep it simple and set it up for Bubba to tabulate the votes and that we would look into more anonymous voting methods in the future.  But for now, if you want to vote and can't come to the meeting, Bubba and he alone will know your vote but will keep it in strict confidence from all.  If you want to vote anonymously, then you will need to come to the meeting this Tuesday.  I expect Bubba and or Mello will advise today or asap as to where and how to send your electronic vote.  If nothing else, just send it to Bubba by PM here.  There are five contested elections.  The current nominees to vote for are:



Hanley Loller, President 

Allen Kirkwood, Vice President 

Fred Coates, Treasurer 

Chris Schardl, Secretary 

David Leachman, River Conservation 

Meryl Douglas, Membership Coordinator 
John Mello, Membership Coordinator 

Brandon Jett, Member at Large
Clay Warren, Member at Large 

Lloyd Funkhouser, Program Director 
Barry Grimes, Program Director 

Dave Margavage, Gearmeister 
Doug Begley, Gearmeister 

Dale Perry, Safety 
Wes Prince, Safety 

Russell Hampton, Webmaster 

Don Spangler, Bowlines 

Todd Garland, NPFF 

Steve Ruth, Russell Fork Rendezvous]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6797/#msg-6797</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:43:41 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6746/#msg-6746</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Meryl:  I understood what you were saying.  I was just pointing out that last year and every year I have been a member, acting officers will tally the votes, just like Bubba did last year.  I just think we ought to trust that arrangement, but, I really don't care if there is another way to tally them in another arrangement.    Unless there is a reason to distrust the count, who cares?  But, I am cool with your suggestions.  Can they be implemented tho by this election?  Do we really have a trust issue with anyone counting them if not?  I just don't think there has ever been a problem with the tallying of votes, in my experience.  But, what the heck, let's implement whatever will work.  Who is up for the task of the email count you are proposing?  Hanley seems to think it will be something not too difficult to set up.  Wanna talk about it this evening at the SC meeting? 
Brent
.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6746/#msg-6746</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:14:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6730/#msg-6730</link>
      <author>meryldouglas</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Sorry Brent, I guess I wasn't clear. I was agreeing with your position that lack of secrecy is a problem. The email voting option doesn't allow for a secret ballot.

I also don't see this as a trust issue. I see it as making sure nobody is put in the position of having their trustworthiness become an issue. I wouldn't be for any one officer gathering the paper ballots and counting them alone in a room either.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6730/#msg-6730</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 22:22:09 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6700/#msg-6700</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I will not be on the forum in the future, unless I have to ;-)  Anyone is welcome to call me to discuss their issues.  227-5886.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6700/#msg-6700</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:32:15 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6673/#msg-6673</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dave, Dave, Dave,  I am sorry you hate me so adamantly.  I wish you could put this dislike behind you and see that My opinions are not worth this amount of focus or attention from you.  If you feel you are doing what is right, be proud of it.  In reference to this thread, you should reread and see that it is moving with forward progress and to shit on it the way you so love to do lately is epitomizing what you so hate to see.  My second post in this thread was to help me gain a better understanding of where Brent was coming from and he did just that.  I appreciate his clarification as it answers several questions for me and maybe others.  Your hatred has gone too far,  with your post who is being the asshole here??  I will second your motion if you want, as long as you realize that you are in the same boat you feel I am in, especially when you call me a liar, which those with half a brain know to be farthest from the truth.  I was hoping that with the end of the past rant toward me we could just let this die, For the sake of all who read this and others that do want to see the posts on this forum move somewhere, Let Go of this disgust.  what did I do other than miss Phase 1 of the Elkhorn clean-up?  Nothing,  so please, for everyones sake, Get off it.  If you would rather talk in person and bury this hatchet, I will be at the clean-up tomorrow by 9 am.  We can talk all you like while we work toward a common goal.  See you then, J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6673/#msg-6673</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 10:27:05 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6672/#msg-6672</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I like to motion that we vote to eliminate voting.  Or I previously suggested that if voting is to be continued an &quot;Election Committee&quot; MUST be created to resolve the issues Meryl addresses.  There is NO other way to legitimize the election process.  The Committee MUST have people from each of the newly created parties.  I know one thing Dave Thomas isn’t going to count votes without me looking over his shoulder. 

I understand the BWA has been infiltrated with liars and cheats who want to destroy decades of BWA milestones.  Do we need more rules and more people telling us what to do and do we need more people to stand up (or sit down) and piss on the ones who actually contribute (work), who actually boat and believe in the purpose of the BWA.  IMOHO, being an ass-hole on the forum doesn't count as contributing, nor does volunteering at the NPFF to sit on your ass and tap beer for 2 hrs.  Neither is an example of what being INVOLVED is about.
 
I also motion to eliminate the liars, cheats and most of all the duds, Joey ;-)]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6672/#msg-6672</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 09:37:52 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6657/#msg-6657</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I believe that Meryl's suggestion has merit. In fact, I think we should do it. For the record, I don't remember that idea being rejected. As I remember (and I may be wrong), once she presented us with these websites specifically designed to facilitate absentee voting for organizations, the idea met with general approval. 

In any case, implementation of this proposal is probably easier than tallying email ballots and would certainly provide more transparency and validation of the election process, so I say we go with it. 

Speaking to Brent's point, he is right also. We will never be free of the spectre of suspicion of election fraud as long as someone wants to suggest it. There will always be some uncertainty. Hell, a 12-year-old kid in 2004 could download instructions for hacking a Diebold voting machine (which were built with a back door) and make a reasonable attempt at rigging a national election. It is worth while to suggest reasonable changes to ensure valid elections, but just because people default to what they know and/or what has been done in the past does not mean that there is a conspiracy afoot.

I know that there are a lot of hard feelings in the club between numerous individuals over what to various combatants appear to be underhanded practices or actions of their opponents. Whether these actions in any given situation were or were not ethical, I will not debate. However, I do not believe in general that there is evil afoot. Pretty much everyone involved in the BWA has good intentions and good reasons for being here, but different perspectives about what is and is not acceptable. The one common thread that I see among all of the parties slinging accusations at each other over the last year is a lack of ability (or willingness) to look at the situation through the perspective of their opponents. If we all did a little more of this, we might find that we have more common ground than we have disagreement.

It's not good vs evil folks, it's just boating. 

                  Hanley]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6657/#msg-6657</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 06:39:18 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6653/#msg-6653</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Some element of trust in the officer or officers receiving the email should be sufficient.  Nothing to keep someone from not counting in person votes which is by ballot either.  How does anyone know who might toss them?  I don't see anyone doing that nor has that ever been known to happen.  I would trust any officer to properly count them and I see no reason to do away with the longstanding practice of secret ballot.  Some folks don't want folks to see who they vote for because they may have friends they do not want to argue with that may disagree with their candidate choice.  This is not that big of a deal in counting and accounting for votes.  
Brent
   .]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6653/#msg-6653</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 02:48:37 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6650/#msg-6650</link>
      <author>meryldouglas</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I am against absentee voting, but it looks like it will be allowed this year, so let's at least publicize it and do it right. I agree that an email should be sent explaining that absentee voting is being allowed and what the procedure will be, but I don't see how absentee votes by email are going to work. How will absentee voters be able verify that their votes got counted? What's to keep emails from being selectively chosen for printing and counting? What about voter anonymity? I posted links to several secure internet voting services before, why has that option been rejected? Heck, if a secret ballot isn't being considered for absentee voters anyway, why not just have them post their votes on the forum?

Meryl]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6650/#msg-6650</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 19:17:42 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6649/#msg-6649</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Melloman:  Sounds fine to me.  I think as long as we have verifiable votes such as email, snail mail (received by John the day of the election), or in person, we then have legitimate votes from any members that care enough to vote.  Verifiability seems to be the key to the formality that Joey suggests, and I think anything is fine as long as we are consistent.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6649/#msg-6649</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 18:18:58 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6647/#msg-6647</link>
      <author>MisterMello</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You guys are on the right track.  Let's get something firmed up at the SC meeting next week and I will send out an email to everyone who has a working email address in my possession.  We will also put a post on the forum.  It's a good way to have a test run before we try to put anything in &quot;black and white&quot;. I think the best and easiest way to count ballots would be to print the email responses as they come in and bring them to the meeting.  We would have written record if there needed to be a recount or if we needed to hang some Chads or whatever. Anyone have any other thoughts?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6647/#msg-6647</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 17:31:01 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6621/#msg-6621</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You know it's funny you reference that election year Barry because not only was I nominated and elected to safety officer with the use as you point out of absentee voting as an option, It was done with out my knowledge, I was away in NC for the entire summer and it was not until I returned from NC in August that I learned I had not only been nominated but actually elected to a position during an election I could even have voted in, WOW talk about disenfranchisement.  So I restate that it was not clearly communicated to all.  It may have been in practice but not uniformly nor with a formal format.  That is all I am trying to convey here.  I appreciate you dredging this up from a post that came at some point from the old forum.  There, to my knowledge, had been little effort to consistantly inform all members of this option, no e-mail, just a single forum post.  This probably means that others with short tenures in the BWA were quite possibly in the same boat as me.  As we know from this forum a small percentage of the whole membership actually reads it all and posts.  I do thank you for putting the info out there that it did exist, but I think it only reinforces the need to have a formal set-up so all may know of this option if it is to be used effectively and fairly.  If only 50% of the club know it is an option what is the fairness and legitimacy in that?  just a retorical question.  So I recommend we set-up a formal ballot as planned if the amendment was passed so there can be a new precedent established for this option and therefore legitimize it to all members. Thanks, J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6621/#msg-6621</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 07:22:13 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6618/#msg-6618</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Having given this a good bit of thought, I decided that it is probably the right thing to do to allow absentee voting at the upcoming officer elections, with the stipulation of a formalized method as Joey suggests. Although this makes me a tad uncomfortable, I feel that three arguments made here are stronger than the rest.

1) Not allowing absentee voting would disenfranchise existing members, many of whom have voted absentee in the past and would have every reason to expect to be able to do so for this election.

2) There is a long established precedence of allowing absentee voting.

3) Brent's clear argument of implied intent by the absence of specific language used elsewhere in the document to describe a restriction on a parallel situation. 

So, I say we allow it for this election, but make sure that the options presented for amendment of the bylaws for July clarify this issue one way or another. I suggest having two proposed amendments to vote on, one specifically allowing absentee voting and one specifically forbidding it. Hopefully one or the other will pass.

                 Hanley]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6618/#msg-6618</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 06:36:32 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6613/#msg-6613</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Regardless, let's just get it cleared up and I think Hanley's idea for a July vote when the membership is down to the active core is a good one.  Though I am fine to leave it as is cause I am convinced absentee voting is permissable within our bylaws, the issue has been raised and would be simple to clear up so those that care about whether it is available or not will know.  Not really sure why there is even controversy about folks absentee voting that care enough to be members in the BWA unless there is reason they should be disenfranchised.  But Joey is right that we need to get it in the Bylaws unequivocably spelled out in black and white.  So, let's tee it back up for July.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6613/#msg-6613</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 05:17:59 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6609/#msg-6609</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&quot;I mention it because during my short time as a member (the past 3+ years) I have only heard it expressly stated as an option openly this past year.&quot;

Joey just an fyi - your election as BWA safety officer in 2006 employed absentee ballots:-)
 
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Forum/read/send/9,5467,5548/#msg-5548]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6609/#msg-6609</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 19:16:46 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6608/#msg-6608</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Joey:
Cool
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6608/#msg-6608</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 18:09:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6607/#msg-6607</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[It does Brent, Thank You.  Agree with it or not, it does clarify the other side.  I would also have to say that I echo your reason for bringing up the amendment to make it as clearly stated as possible and rule out any doubt as to the potential ambiguity of the language.  As for the absentee option being well established, I mention it because during my short time as a member (the past 3+ years) I have only heard it expressly stated as an option openly this past year.  I am pretty sure there are others in teh same boat so to speak.  This lack of a formal method or notification is the source of my unawareness of absentee as an option or long standing precedent.  I have been in the situation where I could have used it had I known it was an established precedent, but didn't know and was of the mind set that not being there I had to trust those in attendance to do the right thing.  This is the source of my ademant desire to see a formal process established.  This way there is no one left out of the loop, especially given the size our our membership base, and it is an open and publicized option for those not able to make the meetings.  I would hope you can agree with that point of view and need for the formality of the process.  With that I would still like to see us draft a formal/uniform ballot and process of casting and accounting for those absentee votes.  Thanks again for the clarification and I look forward to a smooth election process this year.  J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6607/#msg-6607</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 18:07:30 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6606/#msg-6606</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Joey:  Go back over to the library and ask a first year law student about &quot;language construction&quot; often used in statutory &quot;language construction&quot;.  Can probably ask the librarian there as well.  The basic premise of this well established method in the law is to imply intent from the absence of specific language that is used elsewhere in the same instrument.  This what Judges all over Kentucky and the United States do to address ambiguity in the wording of documents, whether contracts, statutes, Last Will and Testaments, etc.  Here, &quot;member present&quot; language is used in one method of voting and not with the officer elections.  That is &quot;clear intent&quot; not to use the &quot;member present&quot; in the section on officer elections.  I do not know what awareness folks had of absentee voting over the time you have been in the club over the past few years, but over my 19 years, it has been well known, used and not a problem, ever.  With that said, the mere fact that some folks question it made me opt for amending the bylaws to more expressly address this most useful technique for voting among members that are disbursed around a broad greographical region.  Hope this helps you see the &quot;other side&quot; as you requested.

Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6606/#msg-6606</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 16:55:24 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6605/#msg-6605</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Now, with the agreement for the absentee for this election I have to raise the question of the precedent and &quot;clear implication&quot; in the bylaws allowing absentee voting.  In doing research and going to the Law school library I have copied the most current edition of RROR.  In the absentee vote section they clearly state that &quot;it is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vot is taken in a legal meeting.&quot;  And article 9 of our bylaws state that RROR shall govern where applicable. However, RROR states that &quot;Exceptions to this rule [for clubs that have a widely distributed membership such as ours] must be expressly stated in the bylaws.&quot;  this brings to question the ambiguity of how it is stated in our election process section of the bylaws.  RROR lastly states that &quot;If there is a possibility of any ucertainty about who will be entitled to vote, this should be spelled out unambiguously and strictly enforced to avoid unfairness in close votes.&quot;

So, help me to understand how we can continue under the premise that our bylaws include this method of voting. 

As for the precedent, to my knowledge it hasn't been a consistent accross the board use or publicized option, as there are many that have never heard of it as an option until last year.  And many that would have exercised their right to vote had they been aware in previous years.


I do, however have to admit that after reading arguments for the absentee allowment from members such as Dustin and Wes, they present valid cases and have helped me to re-evaluate my former view point.  This is why I voted for the amendment and made the previous post.  Yet, due to the above quoted material I am inclined to feel even more strongly that this issue needs to be added as an amendment.  If this means through Hanley's suggestion of promptly after elections based on the membership at that time then so be it. Then we could legitimize this method of voting and put this to rest, but it should be clear otherwise it is deemed to be an illegal method based on clearly stated articles currently in our bylaws.

So as I said before help me understand how we can keep saying it's a precedent and clearly implied?  I make this post as an informational statement and also in the hope of understanding the other side of this discussion.  Thanks,  J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6605/#msg-6605</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 16:16:43 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6604/#msg-6604</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I agree that the pulse of the amendment vote is to approve the absentee amendment.  I also would agree with you all that we should allow this for the election, but only if it is in a formal manner as it was going to be had the amendment passed.  I think this is necessary to keep the votes of all participants in the election legitimate.  We should set up one of the methods discussed at some of the previous steering committee meetings.  What I would be disappointed to see is absentee votes of no formal format.  The last thing we need are random e-mails and the occasional cocktail napkin with votes on them.  I am all for allowing it if it is in a formal manner.  J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6604/#msg-6604</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:50:47 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6591/#msg-6591</link>
      <author>ferdunerd</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&quot;Clearly implied&quot; is an oxymoron.  

I still maintain that the bylaws are written to say what you CAN do. To say that if they don't say you can't, then it must mean you can is wrong.

In this particular situation, however, I think absentee voting and &quot;family memberships&quot;should be allowed because of what we have done in the past and the expectations of people who joined under those circumstances.  

Then we need to settle these issues and state  them EXPLICITLY.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6591/#msg-6591</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 11:28:00 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6587/#msg-6587</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I'm for allowing absentee voting at next month's election - just as has been done in the past. While we did not get the majority of the member vote required to actually change the bylaws, the wording of the bylaws as they exist now IMHO clearly implies allowing absentee voting anyway. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6587/#msg-6587</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 12:52:07 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6586/#msg-6586</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hanley:
I agree.  That is why I raise it now.  I think there will be more taint to disallow members to vote than to simply reinterpret the bylaws as presuming &quot;in person&quot; voting.  I hope it will not be an issue also, but, I think we need to address the reality of the predicament now on that score, and then we can have a clearer interpretation with a bylaw change.  Right now, there is good reason to allow absentee voting for the reasons I just mentioned.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6586/#msg-6586</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 11:54:38 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6585/#msg-6585</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[That's a sticky area. It would be better if we had a majority voting up or down on the issue this past month, but we didn't even get a majority to vote. 

I am personally hoping that absentee votes won't tilt any of the election results and thus will be a non-issue, but I'm torn about the actual issue of allowing absentee voting. I don't want to disenfranchise voters who can't attend the June meeting, but I also want to try to stick to the letter of the law as much as possible. Mostly I want to take another swing at amending the bylaws in July. I'm actually less concerned about what the rules end up being, just so long as they are clear and consistent.

I'll have to give this some more consideration before I can actually ring in on one side of this issue or the other.

             Hanley]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6585/#msg-6585</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 11:48:36 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Officer Elections and Absentee voting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6583/#msg-6583</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I know that we did not pass the measure to amend bylaws, but with the elections coming up, folks that are not able to attend our June meeting should go ahead and send in absentee ballots so that there is no irregularity raised by the vote due to restricting members rights to do so.   In support of that, the Bylaws clearly imply absentee voting, tradition has had absentee voting and the vast majority of the BWA members who did vote on the measure supported absentee voting.  The election will be tainted if it is not allowed, so, I think everyone who desires to do so, should.  It may not matter, hopefully, anyway, but, better to have all votes that want to be placed than to restrict them.  Since there is no real rule about when, I would urge that any votes received by the meeting be counted and considered.  We can talk about this more at the SC meeting and here. so everyone pipe in that has views.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,6583,6583/#msg-6583</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 11:39:46 -0400</pubDate>
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