			<div   class='message  msg_warn'>
									
				You are currently not logged in or haven't verified your email in a while. Please login or complete the verifictation process to post.
				</div>
			<div style='clear:both'></div>
		<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<rss version="2.0">
  <channel>
    <title>BWA-Speak</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/9/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[General BWA Message and Milling Area]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:42:57 -0500</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:42:57 -0500</lastBuildDate>
    <category>BWA-Speak</category>
    <generator>Phorum 5.1.23</generator>
    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout -- big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4545/#msg-4545</link>
      <author>tmiller</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The main reason that there is a need for more gravel at the Elkhorn Acres is because we have been blessed with so much rain,so far this year. Not because its been neglected by EAMG. We have just used it a lot! :) Pray for more rain! tim
(:D mX(]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4545/#msg-4545</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:42:57 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4527/#msg-4527</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[When AW looks at an access location there are a number of attributes that we find desirable. They are: 
1) The property provides valuable public access to the river, where public access does not exist. 
2) The property protects unique whitewater resources, such as waterfalls or rapids. 
3) The property includes important wildlife habitat or buffers wildlife habitat from development. 
4) The property remains in a relatively natural, undisturbed condition. 
5) The property protects wetlands, which contribute to the water quality of the river. 
6) All other reasonable access solutions and alternatives have been explored. 
7) Effective local management has been identified; local clubs and members should express their commitment to caring for the property. 


This is what AW requires.  Now it seems that what EAMG  does falls within this.  If they(EAMG) are opposed to a pavilion, then in accordance with the above that is okay since a pavilion disturbs and changes the natural condition.  They also state that there is to be no camping, yet there is a double standard set when WE the non governing group of this property, Because we are neither EAMG nor are we AW, vote to allow this to happen.  Regardless of if AW says, Well.. Okay for this event that's okay.  No, that is contradictory to their posted regulations.  As hanley said at the meeting, we are opening a Pandoras box by voting to camp.  So, EAMG may not be perfect, but they seem to be doing what is required.  But I am sure I will soon hear how I am wrong on this matter.    We seem to be the ones circumventing their authority, whether it is believed to be legit or not, and going above them rather then supporting their efforts and lobbying them for progress.   You know it is funny that &quot;WE&quot; don't recognize their establishment, yet we are open to giving them money for the gravel.  Seems odd doesn't it.    Now, to the gravel issue.  I recall people too busy to help at roll sessions over the months of Drought due to going paddling on the weekends out of town.  How are they going to do the gravel? If we want to make it happen them this is my request.

Zina, What can be done with the $1900 earmarked for the project to make it happen by the end of the month?  How can the BWA help EAMG get this project done.   This seems to be a more important use of time, help the body that may be, according to some, inadequate, do a better job.  That seems more productive than complaining about them.  So why not help them rather than bitch about them.  Isn't that progress and moving forward?  J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4527/#msg-4527</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:48:16 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4523/#msg-4523</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Joey, the EAMG has NOT come even close to doing an adequate job of taking care of the Elkhorn property. Have you even read what others have been posting about that? FYI, the gravel and the pot holes in the road have been endlessly discussed since early LAST Summer. We've now gone through a huge, several months long drought - when attracting volunteers to fix the pot holes and the weather to do so would have been perfect  and yet...NOTHING happens. Weather has zero to do with the delay - divisiveness and gridlock in the EAMG has everything to do with it. 

You claim to be reading the history of the EAMG and the land purchase but you still seem to be overlooking the most obvious part of that history - the EAMG is broken when it comes to building consensus and getting things done... 

I challenge you - or anyone - to point out one thing that the EAMG has done for the takeout beyond mowing the grass or what it's best at - being a target for endless arguing. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4523/#msg-4523</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:02:09 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4519/#msg-4519</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I believe what Dale is getting at is that it is a BWA issue to support the EAMG and their management of EA.  Not do away with the EAMG.  He clearly states that they seem to have done an adequate jod in the regular up keep of the property.  All be it there are still pot holes, but I believe that a big slowing point is waiting on the weather to be fairer such as this spring.  The money is there ( from BWA as well as OTHER INTITIES!!) but I would like to know from Zina what the proposed timeline is since she would most likely know.  To my knowledge there were volunteers earmarked to help too.  This to me doesn't mean they are doing a poor job, it is just circumstantial evidence to the delay of the project.  Lets not put the cart before the horse.  If I recall the BWA has issues with getting things done too such as updating our bylaws which hasn't been done in over 25 years, Wow what a delay if there ever was one! J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4519/#msg-4519</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:44:00 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4512/#msg-4512</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Joey,
Good idea to bring this thread from last August up to the top again. The rancor was less vociferous then but the issues were basically the same as today - only 7 months later. And yet, the pot holes are still not fixed:-) 

I see several folks stating in this thread (including Dale) that the management of the Elkhorn is clearly the BWA's business. Glad to see that we at least agree on that part...
barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4512/#msg-4512</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:50:37 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4482/#msg-4482</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Just thought I would bring this thread back to the top as I have been doing some deeper reading into some of the history just over the past year with this issue.  Though there is some crap it is an interesting read with some of the points made.  Take a few minutes to read if interested as it was worthwhile in my opinion.  J]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,4482/#msg-4482</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:32:39 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,908/#msg-908</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dave... I think your wrong. It depends on where I'm paddling.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,908/#msg-908</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:21:28 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,899/#msg-899</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale, I think your wrong.  Will you still paddle with me?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,899/#msg-899</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:25:03 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,893/#msg-893</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[George the only spin I am averting my eyes from in this thread is Dallas' helicopter :-) 

Meanwhile, I can verify that naked rain and drum dances happened this past weekend and may have worked. We drove through heavy t-storms near Berea on our way home from a fab time at Brent's amazing festival near the Pigeon. I also think Silver Creek may be a run in the morning?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,893/#msg-893</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:34:43 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,892/#msg-892</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[No Problem, I just don't want to see a simple fact about donations become a spin about the need for BWA involvement. I'm glad we donated the monies to support the property. I'm also very pleased with the management of the property over the four or five years I've been involved with the BWA.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,892/#msg-892</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:43:29 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,891/#msg-891</link>
      <author>ferdunerd</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Bill wanted to know how much money the BWA has given EAMG this year...$600.  One of the few facts in this thread.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,891/#msg-891</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:39:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,890/#msg-890</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[So the BWA gave $600 to the EAMG fund, thats great, but that does not make Elkhorn Acres BWA business. Answer me this. Does the BWA donate monies ear marked for Elkhorn Acres because we appreciate the use of the property and feel an obligation to help support it? Or, does teh BWA donate the monies because we wish to gain power over the management of the property? 

I say it is the former, because we appreciate it and feel and obligation to support management of it. Equally I have the impression that we donate monies to other worthy causes because we appreciate them and feel an obligation to support their positions on issues and legislation that benefits our interests.

If I am wrong Then I must also assume that the BWA's interests in donating monies to other oganizations (like the one hosting this site) would also be for the aquisition of power and management.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,890/#msg-890</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:24:14 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,889/#msg-889</link>
      <author>ferdunerd</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The BWA gave $600 to the Elkhorn Acres Management Fund on 5/8/07.  As I recall, this was for gravel.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,889/#msg-889</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:46:28 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,887/#msg-887</link>
      <author>Kayak1ky</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I know only one naked rain dance.  And there isn't one guy in this room who hasn't done it.   THE  HELICOPTER!!!!]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,887/#msg-887</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:42:48 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,886/#msg-886</link>
      <author>cschardl</author>
      <description><![CDATA[NAKED dancing, Brent. Someone has to monitor Brent and make sure he's doing it right. I would, but I have things to do. I am sure I must have things to do, and am too busy to watch Brent's naked dancing. Any volunteers?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,886/#msg-886</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:37:04 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,883/#msg-883</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tim:  I have been dancing.  Rain should start happening soon.  Hold off on impeachment.  I have siblings (4).  You are funny.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,883/#msg-883</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:23:46 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,880/#msg-880</link>
      <author>tmiller</author>
      <description><![CDATA[OK aside from this forum just sucking, I wanted to give my 2 cents worth. I think we should start a petition to impeach Brent due to lack of local rainfall. If he was doing the proper rain dances as outlined in our revised bylaws, we would all be on the Elkhorn. Perhaps we could string him up and sacrifice him to the rain gods. They just might smile on us and give us some rain. Oh Brent were you an only child? One can't always get their way! tim m]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,880/#msg-880</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:32:28 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,877/#msg-877</link>
      <author>cschardl</author>
      <description><![CDATA[There is a lot of energy in this discussion. Asking to pull the thread is absurd and disrespectful to those who have put a lot and time and thought into it. If you don't like reading what they have to say, just shut up and read Harry Potter instead. As for me, it is a useful learning experience. Granted, it means wading through a lot of B.S., but any scientist, lawyer or regular reader of the daily newspaper should be used to that.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,877/#msg-877</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:06:49 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,871/#msg-871</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Just because the private donors were members of the BWA does NOT make Elkhorn Acres a BWA issue! Barry you said it yourself those of you who invested were given shares and therefore votes accordingly, so place your vote/s and let the democratic majority rule. 

Making this a public debate among the BWA as a whole involves masses of people who have no vested shares in the property, and prostitutes the democratic process already established. Brent does not need a 200 person discussion to vote his best conscience on behalf of the BWA, He was elected as the president to do that. If he needs input bring it up at a meeting where active members have a voice and non active members can be responsible for themselves. 

Let face it &quot;You can make all of the people happy some of the time and some of the people happy all of the time but most of the time somebody is going to be pissed of at you no matter how hard you try to do the right thing&quot;.

There is only a few legitimate reasons to address this issue (an EAMG issue, not a BWA issue) on a AW website hosting a newly formed BWA forum.  The most obvious is to generate public support for a preferred outcome. Resembles trying a case in the media prior to entering a courtroom doesn't it.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,871/#msg-871</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:47:30 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,870/#msg-870</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[atomman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; If I give $10,000 do I get to run the EA? 

At $500/ &quot;share&quot; you would (according to some who advocate a shareholders only attitude) be entitled to 20 votes and essentially hold the majority portion of votes in a closed EAGM. 

&gt;Money is
&gt; a ridiculous  (unless your a politician) reason to
&gt; decide this issue. 

No kidding. Glad your coming around to understand that:-)

&gt;I will bet that that 'private'
&gt; donors gave the bulk of the money for this land

That is exactly correct. Of the $29k purchase price approximately $27k came from private donations - and the overwhelmng majority were BWA members.   

&gt; not just an 'exclusive' club like the BWA (you
&gt; have to pay dues to belong, while the fee is
&gt; nominal, it is required to even be involved in
&gt; this discussion).
&gt; BIll

The BWA is only &quot;exclusive&quot; in that you must pony up $20 to join other than that, there are no restrictions to becoming a BWA (or Viking or Elkhorn Paddler). 

barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,870/#msg-870</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:07:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,869/#msg-869</link>
      <author>atomman</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I agree, the Vikings should run EA. They have given probably as much or money than the BWA (this year they gave $1000) has the BWA given that much? I know the Elkhorn Paddlers gave a $1000 to the initial purchase plus more since for maintenance. If I give $10,000 do I get to run the EA? Money is a ridiculous  (unless your a politician) reason to decide this issue. I will bet that that 'private' donors gave the bulk of the money for this land not just an 'exclusive' club like the BWA (you have to pay dues to belong, while the fee is nominal, it is required to even be involved in this discussion).
BIll]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,869/#msg-869</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:51:25 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,868/#msg-868</link>
      <author>LarryC</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I haven't had a bone in the fight , but I will have to disagree, it is a BWA issue. We as a club are one of the major donors and the Club itself, represented by the current President, is a voting member of the EAMG. Even a good portion of the money for the proposed parking area improvements came from club funds. So the budget of EAMG is a Club issue.

I will point out that the parking lot improvements were brought before the club as a specific budget item and the BWA committed funds to that part of the budget, as did the Vikings.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,868/#msg-868</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:30:29 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,866/#msg-866</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[This Discussion is claerly NOT a BWA discussion, atleast not at this point. Public Discussion on the AW/BWA forum is at best premature and should be removed from this forum until the EAMG determines what if any improvements are to be considered for the 2007/2008 fiscal years.

I agree with Dustin, it is totally inappropraite to manipulate this forum into a budget discussion on hypothetical queries about a property who's title is held by the AW. 

Until the AW administration asks for theinput of the BWA membership the servicn officers of the BWA should be hands off within the club regarding Steering commitee decisions of the EAMG]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,866/#msg-866</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:58:07 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,865/#msg-865</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[More smoke and mirrors…

Brent wrote, “everyone will note that I have not started or implemented any procedural or parliamentary maneuver via steering committees or otherwise to directly address, affect or take over management of AW's property”

No, you haven’t yet, but that was a threat/promise you made in an email to the EAMG steering committee/a couple of other people.

Brent wrote, “AW simply trusts it's friends in the BWA…”

That’s not quite right. While AW doesn’t have any problem with the BWA, and in fact, they should love us,  it is  the EAMG that they trust to run the property, as they are the ones who bought and paid for the property and handed it to American Whitewater on a silver platter. AW doesn’t give a rats ass whether it’s the BWA or the EAMG that manages the property.  My guess is, they don’t want the headache that this “hostile takeover minority”  is providing them. If not for this hostile group, AW would barely be aware that the property exists, except when they pay the taxes. 

Brent wrote, “I am simply asking for input from my club on this topic”

It’s not that simple. You are trying to do more than that. You’ve said as much, but not to the club, yet. No, that is not “simply” what you’re asking.

Brent wrote, “The management group, is not an official group, has never been formally accepted by all donors”

What’s official mean, exactly? How official would you need it to be, for it to be recognized by you? As long as a single donor holds out, it will never be “formally accepted by all donors“.  

Brent wrote, “…the changing room were done by volunteers without regard to any formal management group”

This is a blatantly false statement. The changing rooms were done, by rogue volunteers, specifically without the approval of the EAMG, with the intent to give the group a “black eye“. The volunteers bragged about specifically doing it outside of the EAMG. These “see through” changing rooms should point out why the EAMG is important for planning purposes. Why are they see through? Was that intentional or were the “architects” of the changing rooms just that inept? 

Brent wrote, “Why create a large budget” 

The budget really doesn’t mean that much. The whole “budget” issue is in response to a minority of EAMG “insisting” that “all” donations go to American Whitewater. I don’t have much of a problem with this, though, I understand this as just another “stick” by the minority to throw in the “spokes“.  By the donations going to AW, the donors contributions can be tax deductible. This is a good thing, even if it is being used a “tool” to torture the EAMG(and now, unfortunately, the BWA). AW didn’t have a problem dealing with this, but they, like any good, large, organization, asked for a budget. Those who deal with budgets  understand that they don’t really mean that much. 

This whole “budget” issue is being blown WAY out of proportion. The EAMG can only spend what money that the people will donate. If the people won’t donate the money, it won’t get spent, budget or not. 

Dustin, I don’t agree that this thread should be pulled. Pulling threads should only be done under some very specific circumstances. This thread, while being pretty distasteful, would not meet any conditions under which I think threads should be pulled. Now… if we started bad-mounting Apple computers… that might be a different story. :-)

I sincerely hope that any other group that is contemplating purchasing a piece of property and donating it to AW under similar conditions doesn’t stumble across this thread. It would probably inspire them to do something other than allow AW to hold title to the property. I’m pretty sure the people of the EAMG would do something different, today, if given the chance. 

It’s a damned shame. In my opinion, AW should be the perfect entity for the donation of these types of properties, if not for the aggressive, power hungry club politicians.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,865/#msg-865</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:52:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,864/#msg-864</link>
      <author>paddlezrm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[There is a *draft* budget, sent to the officers for discussion and amendment, not anything resembling a final proposal. Two of the items had figures which were annotated &quot;wild-ass guess&quot; meaning that more research needed to be done to figure out appropriate figures should those items be included. This annotation was a feeble (and failed) attempt at humor, and at enlisting those with more experience in construction estimation to help figure out what certain things might cost.

The basic categories in addition to the gravel and railing were:
mowing
donation box construction and installation
signage for no trespassing/ no camping (discussed for years but never actually installed)
porta-potty rental
reconstruction of changing rooms.
The total of all those was $5150, over 2 years, with a significant lack of confidence in the figures for the donation box and changing rooms.

Items not discussed at that officers meeting were listed in the 2008 portion, as a means to think ahead what *might* we want to include, not as a means of setting a project schedule. Those items did not come out of a vacuum but were things which have been brought out as issues in the past. This was a draft document to stimulate discussion. I apologize for not adequately explaining what I meant by draft and causing such angst over a process meant to be open to discussion, amendment, refinement. I had hoped there would be some sort of consensus amongst the EAMG officers, or at least a clear statement of pros, cons, issues before the draft was paraded before everyone. Steering committees exist to do the more in-depth research and pondering of all sides of an issue so that it can be presented to the greater group succinctly, thus taking up less of their precious time.

Zina

foydawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; What does the $6,000 include other than mowing and
&gt; $1,900 for gravel.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,864/#msg-864</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:15:51 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,863/#msg-863</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[CHEERS DUSTIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,863/#msg-863</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:10:15 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,862/#msg-862</link>
      <author>wirednut14er</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I motion this thread be erased.  This really should be private conversation, not visible to American Whitewater public.  The Elkhorn Acres is not by any means excluding any users that are private boaters by being managed by a group of people who worked their asses off to secure the land in the first place.  The BWA should be supportive of the EAMG as it is one of many users of the property.  However, I'm not saying the EAMG is perfect either.  This discussion should continue outside of this venue and I strongly suggest that all members of the EAMG be present (and invited) to get all of these discrepancies worked out.  The one piece of property that brings us together should not be the wedge that splits apart our club, to me that is why the EAMG should remain the group overseeing the care of Elkhorn Acres for the benifit of the private boating community.

Thanks,
Dustin]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,862/#msg-862</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:53:49 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,861/#msg-861</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Sorry Brent,

I still don't see this discussion as a BWA issue! THe property is owned by the AW and managed by a private group. The budget to maintain it is NOT BWA business.

I have noticed that the AW has effectively avoided participating in this discussion and wisely so, the arguement hear is between the original individuals involved in the purchase and the management group, it's method of maanagement and the ego's involved.

Let the parties directly involved battle it out and when a compromise is reached then bring the decision to the BWA as a club and we can vote on our support.

If you wouldn't bring the divorce proceedings of a couple of BWA members to the forum for discussion then don't bring other personal conflicts here either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THe BWA is an outside entity involved only in the support of the management group and it's decisions to the best of my understanding. As the President of This club I beleive it is partly your duty to serve the club and it's best interest, not attempt to use the club as a platform for which to pursue your person plans and agendas.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,861/#msg-861</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:31:36 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,860/#msg-860</link>
      <author>foydawg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[What does the $6,000 include other than mowing and $1,900 for gravel.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,860/#msg-860</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:28:39 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn takeout - AW acres - big budget issue</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,859/#msg-859</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[That is absolutely hilarious Chris.  Perfect.

Now, let's get back to the debate (word) that is really at hand:  do we need to spend buckets of money on AW's property?  I am assuming that the management group is open to all interested persons and I am asking the BWA for their input and ideas on how we manage and spend money on AW's property, so we can give them our best recommendations.  My opinions about the BWA and it's potential to manage the property is just my personal opinion.  I stated that opinion the night of the election when I was asked by an interested party how I stand on that issue.  I was candid then and I am now on that.  I hope everyone recalls my response that night because I sure do.  However, everyone will note that I have not started or implemented any procedural or parliamentary maneuver via steering committees or otherwise to directly address, affect or take over management of AW's property.  There will be no secret parliamentary moves regarding same.  I don't believe in those.  I am simply asking for input from my club on this topic.

The management group, is not an official group, has never been formally accepted by all donors and has not really had to do much so far.  It has no written agreement with AW.  AW simply trusts it's friends in the BWA who it sees as involved on this property that they own.  The gravel that is there and the changing room were done by volunteers without regard to any formal management group.  There has been lot's of volunteerism outside of the original donors and the property is not broke and does not need to fixed.  Why create a large budget and spend lots of money on AW's property?  Why recommend that to AW?   Anyone want to discuss the issue of budget and what to recommend to AW?  I would like to hear some ideas other than how much money we can spend on the property.  Let's focus on the needs of the property and boaters.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,808,859/#msg-859</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:54:14 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
  </channel>
</rss>

