Ok, maybe I haven't been paying attention. But at what point did we start adding the disclaimer "may vary with level" to the difficulty rating for each river?

Personally, I really don't like this.

For rivers whose difficulty does very with level, I've always indicated it by specifying a range of difficulty levels.

And for many rivers, as long as the flow is within the customary, usual range the difficulty might not change. I think it's universally understood that if a river has unusually low or high water volume it changes the difficulty.

Why did we do this? Did the lawyers suddenly get involved?

/Skip

Skip,

I think it's just a boilerplate disclaimer.
True, you specify a range of difficulties based on level; so do I, and so do many obsessive STers.
However, we don't have an obsessive STer covering every reach. So we need the disclaimer in there, so that surfers who're too naive to recognize that opinions are just opinions don't get stoopid enough to think that everything in here is gospel.
Even guidebooks have similar disclaimers.

Well, I've got to say I protest the implementation.

Boilerplate disclaimers are sometimes a necessary evil
whenever the lawyers get involved.

But the position and appearance of this disclaimer makes
it appear to be a delibrate choice of the Streamkeeper.

Ie, People will be mislead to think the Streamkeeper is
saying the difficulty of the river normally varies on this
river.

Can the statement be moved and made to look a bit
different?

/Skip

This is a pretty recent addition and I did not hear about, see or participate in any discussion leading up to its implementation. You don't sound like you were involved in discussing or deciding this Matt. So, either some staff decided it was necessary, or Ryan just put it in there, thinking it sounded nice.

It seems fairly innocuous to me, but it does not add any information either. If it turns out to be something that staff or lawyers do think is necessary, how would you prefer it to read and what other positioning might you suggest?

Paul

All due respect to all opinions. I do not mean to be argumentative, but I would like to address some of the specific statements in Skip's posts, just to provide another perspective.

1) "For rivers whose difficulty does very with level, I've always indicated it by specifying a range of difficulty levels."
I think the usual consensus is that the difficulty range should not be to indicate how the river changes at different flows, but rather to characterize the overall impression of the whitewater on the river at some 'standard' normal usual flow. I'll make an over simplified example. Let's say we've got a river which (at 'normal, usual flows') is fairly continuous, has no big keepy holes and nothing that really needs to be shore-scouted. There are adequate eddies, and (at those 'normal' flows) average, strong beginner to intermediate paddlers would not find it overly 'pushy', but would be reasonably entertained, perhaps slightly challenged. It would just be rated class III (obviously).
At lower flows (still very boatable, not ELF run), it's very likely this would drop to class II, as 'push' would diminish and wave sizes would decrease. At high flow it's entirely possible it may lose eddies, develop a few class IV holes, and have areas where those same strong beginner to intermediate paddlers would be (figuratively and literally) in over their heads. However, it would be misleading to say the river is "class II-IV", because there is not any flow at which that full range of rapids exists.

In a far larger sense, I think it can be a (small) step in breaking a far too common notion, that we can just categorically state that a given river (or reach, or rapids) IS class [whatever], without stating at what flow! AW has it's list of "Standard Rated Rapids" which (in every case) lists the flow ('level') for that rating. I have encountered total newbies claiming to have run class IV stuff (in their recreational kayak, with no sprayskirt!). What they did was bump and scrape (at 'summer flows') down a section which is class IV with flows that experienced kayakers want in the river before they would bother. If that newbie is lead to believe that they can run true class IV in their recreational kayak, we are doing them a disservice -- we are furthering that misperception. OTOH, now that we can specify different ratings at different flows, we can have that river display as class II or class III when it is low, and display as class IV when it is truly class IV. The rating which is displayed (on the state-list) will not be static, but will change as flows change! Sure, it will take people a while to adjust to that fact, but I think that's a good thing! It should help change the misleading mindset that too many people hold to, that a given river (or section) "IS" class [whatever]. That same newbie will see that what they ran (when they ran it) was NOT class IV.

2) "the position and appearance of this disclaimer makes it appear to be a delibrate choice of the Streamkeeper
ie, People will be mislead to think the Streamkeeper is saying the difficulty of the river normally varies on this river."
Since it appears in the exact same place in the exact same way on every reach, I don't see how anyone could assume it is anything chosen by the StreamTeam member. Once any user has looked at more than a couple of pages they should see that it is a standard, constant, boilerplate 'disclaimer'. And, as already discussed and confessed by some of your other statements, the difficulty (of most rivers) DOES normally vary as flow varies!

Again, I mean no disrespect. I am 'just another volunteer'. I do no programming of the functionality of the site and do not make any of the decisions as to what is done. (OK, yes, I'm obsessive/compulsive in my own way, and spend way too much time involved with this project for 'just' a volunteer, and do more than my share of picking on sometimes picayune matters, and am prone (as this message proves) to yammer at excessive length, but . . .) My comments or input (should) carry no more weight than anyone else's. My 'hat is off' to Ryan, and Matt (and all the rest) who must do their best to try to serve and please so many masters (those among us who care enough about the river pages to actually continue to add to them, and to make suggestions and comments about what we would like to see, or what we would prefer done differently).

Yes, the sudden appearance of this disclaimer took me back a bit, too, when I first saw it there. I have made my peace with it and found my way to embrace it, but I will not care much if it stays or goes, or if it is chosen to modify it in some way. Sure, it is a simple thing to change or eliminate (if it is deemed necessary or appropriate to do so), but It seems a rather odd thing to 'protest' when there are so many larger issues (in the AW river pages and the user/StreamTeamer interface) which need to be addressed.

Rob Smage
AW member since 1992, volunteer since 2000, Midwest Regional StreamTeam Editor

The more I look at this, the more I agree that the boilerplate "may vary with level" is unnecessary. We already have a disclaimer in place. This text looks cheesier than a 4-cheese pizza at Uno's. Unless there's some advice from a lawyer or other responsible party, I recommend that the text be obliterated with extreme prejudice.

For rivers/reaches which have online gauges, the 'River Main' tab shows the "Gauge Information" pretty immediately below the little summary box containing the "Usual Difficulty" and this boilerplate disclaimer. That "Gauge Information" box displays not only the gauge information, but also displays a difficulty rating.

For reaches upon which the StreamTeam member has taken advantage of our new gauge functionality (which allows specifying differing difficulty ratings at different flows), the rating displayed in the "Gauge Information" box MAY be different than the "Usual Difficulty" rating displayed just above it on the page!

Without the 'boilerplate disclaimer', it seems very confusing, having two (possibly, sometimes) different ratings of the river in close proximity on one page! With the 'boilerplate disclaimer', it seems to make more sense, allowing that the difficulty may change.

I like the idea that we indicate a "Usual Difficulty". People are used to seeing that, expecting that, and referring to that for each particular section of river. However, I like even more the fact that now, with the new functionality, we can specify different difficulty/ratings at different flows.

In those instances where a StreamTeam member has taken advantage of this functionality, it means users will see the reported rating change with changing flows, giving a more accurate assessment of the conditions they should expect. Yes, it means a bit of confusion is likely at first. "Hey, I thought thought the 'Funforall section of the Newbie River' was class II-III . . . but now AW is showing it as class I-II (when it's running lower than usual) or class III-IV (when it's running high)." But it also means that some newbie who bumps and scrapes down (at low flow), that which is normally a class IV section of river (possibly in their recreational kayak, with no skirt, no PFD, no helmet, and no clue) might see that section displayed as class II-III, and might not be emboldened to try it some other time (when it might truly be class IV or worse).

Experienced boaters know difficulty of a reach generally changes at different flows. Boaters familiar with a given river know what to expect on that river at the variety of flows they have boated it. I don't think boaters who are quite experienced with the rivers they are looking at on AW are the main audience for our river pages; Rather I think our most important target audience would be the less experienced boaters, or boaters looking to do rivers they're not already familiar with. For those paddlers, I don't think an explicit reminder of the variability of difficulty (as correlated to flow) is unwarranted, especially when it allows for the fact that a different rating may be displayed just a few inches away on the same page!

Rob Smage
AW member since 1992, volunteer since 2000, Midwest Regional StreamTeam Editor

How about this: change the disclaimer depending on what actions the SK has performed.

-For reaches where the streamkeeper has specified different difficulty levels for different flow levels, have the disclaimer say "difficulty varies with water level" (or something similar).

-For reaches where the SK has specified only a single difficulty range for all flow levels, the disclaimer should say "for normal flow levels".

-For reaches where no flow level has been defined, nor any other paddler gage exists, it should say something like the current "difficulty may vary with water level".

If we're going to have a boilerplate disclaimer, at least make it useful.

/Skip

I am good with Skip's suggestion, any objections?

No objections from me.

Paul