So on the positive side I think its great that the ACOE has meetings and 'listen' to the stance of recreational releases in other times of the year then Oct.

However, my net of the language in the meeting notes is they're not doing a thing until Congress tells them.

Sounds like the only way we'll get this to succeed is by getting support from the political sector and with Ky's adventure tourism campaign it seems the time is right if we could get a meeting with that committee and lay out a proposal.

Brent, maybe at the minimum the ACOE could give us a web posting or a recording that lists their 3 day (more or less) release plans. That way we don't have to wait around wondering if the spigot is going to turn off on Friday at 4:30pm if its running good on Thurs.

True Bubba. Yeah that would be a BIG help. Great point!
Brent

You know Brent, I'm going to have to disagree with blaming the lower water for the two rafting fatalities at Chad's Rock in Maze. Although more water does open up the entrance a little bit, it also increases the push going to (and under) that rock quite considerably and makes the ferry more difficult. If 1200 were high enough to allow a swimmer to pillow around that rock, I'd probably concede that you are correct, but in this case I doubt that higher water would have been any better, and could have been worse.

Additionally, several circumstances surrounding both of those fatalities (which would be inappropriate to bring up here) probably contributed much more than water level.

Hanley

I understand, but that has been debated by many, especially back then, and I recall the debate focusing quite a bit of blame there. At 1350, you could go straight down the middle and bypass it altogether. Not to deminimize the "other" circumstances and I know what you are talking about and agree those play roles too. I'm just saying it is better to not have to go in front of it at all, which you could do in smaller rafts like those used by Upper Yough expeditions and Precision back in the late 80s. I am not so sure that then Elkhorn City Mayor Hank Sawyer and his crew of drunken town folks and former highschool football players paddling did not go straight down the middle in that big black non-self-bailing behemoth of a raft. I can't recall but I do know that was how we ran it, cause I R2'd with Dave Martin of Upper Yough Expeditions the RF and that is how we ran it as did others I saw.

But, I guess this is irrelevant to the point at hand on the ACOE (maybe not) but a good historical debate and discussion for us ole timers, and yes, Hanley is unequivocably an old timer. When I started paddling hard stuff, Hanley was already out there as a veteran boater. One of the early videographers of the RF race too.

Brent

As for tourism, if it doesnt have a gas tank, make lots of noise and ruin the ecosystem it appears they are not interested. Adventure tourism = OHV. I have extended an invitation to the man in charge himself to sit with me at a UK game and discuss this. (I havent heard back yet but I mentioned that my seats are better than his ) I just hope is congressional bid doesnt overshadow his work. Even if I get his ear in a memorable way he still wont be a great help unless he actually wins that Senate seat.

I would say the chance of moving Fist undercut rock out of the way will be more likely than Rogers, McConnell & Bunning (all R's) crossing the dreaded line in the sand to the other side of the isle and get Jim Webb, Mark Warner and Rich Boucher (all D's) to play ball on any subject. (end of cliche barrage..) We need those 6 people in a consensus to agree for congressional authorization with an estimated price tag of $250K for the basin wide study involving 3 states. Without this we will never get anywhere. The USACE is bound (and stalemated) by the operational requirements of the project. They simply arent going to go outside of the current guidelines they have which means expect more erratic dam operation. Why would they want to add to their workload by having a website or phone # to update?

Sadly I dont think our recent efforts have done a whole heck of alot. I know that one very spirited advocate of our cause had agreed to take this on but I think the organization of our collective voice to bug the ever living snot out of congress never reached a broad enough audience. Is this somewhere AW can help us? With release and festival season coming soon shouldnt this be a good place to start? It would be great to go into that next meeting with a rep from each of those offices because of the amount of correspondence they have received before hand from boaters all over the US? We should demand that they at least be in attendence of these meetings.

I think our first step is to get that meeting scheduled in December by the attendees requesting a date ASAP. Then fire another round of ammo at congress demanding that they have at least 1 representative from their office there. I will start today by contacting the entire panel and asking for a firm date to be set preferably in early December.

Jason:

Sounds good to me. Let me know how I can help calendar, bug or help.

Brent

You flatter me Brent, I blush.

Anyhow, thanks for the respectful approach to that subject. Frankly, I don't think the Mayor's raft went anywhere specifically on purpose, at least not as far as I could see. It looked to me like the sheer size of the thing was the main reason for its seemingly improbable survival. (On a side note, I used to have footage of the sinking of that thing in Let's Make a Deal).

I'm willing to concede that the subject is debatable. Ultimately I feel like the safety margin is flexible. Some things are safer at 1200-1350, other things are safer at 800. Certainly the hole at Triple Drop is more deadly at higher water.

In any case, I was wondering, if an attempt is to be made to change ACOE policy on recreational releases here in Kentucky, shouldn't we tie it together with the Laurel River Dam? That situation is entirely inside Kentucky, making the evaluation less problematic. Established commercial entities that stand to gain from it are already nearby (WW rafting outfitters on the Cumberland). Additionally, I'd say that the Laurel River run has a lot more commercial potential than the Russell Fork, and probably a better chance for getting some scheduled releases. Tie the two together and I think you'll have a broader political base to shout with.

...I should mention that my job prevents me from advocating for either of these causes in a very political way, but I figure I can still make some suggestions.

Hanley

message sent to the corps.

Laurel isnt the same district as the RF for USACE. RF is Huntington, laurel is Nashville and the bottom line is that East Kentucky Power rules the roost. That would be two different conversations with two different groups of people regarding two different basins. Its as if they dont want us on the rivers or something...