Right on Wes, and right back at ya !

There's for sure plenty of viewpoints all over the map about this stuff. Let's just hope we're not the ones to witness the "big meltdown"

I'm sure the CO trip will be something to enjoy and remember, even though I'm not up to running the tough stuff. Open boats tend to fill with water pretty quick in western style class III and above, so it'll be the easier stuff.

We'll talk more when I get back - hope you guys get some water to enjoy while we're gone. We may not be back 'til September ! !

Hope all are blessed with good times, til we meet again.
Mike & Patty

Since we are on the environmental thread, if you have not done so already, read the book, "Missing Mountains: We went to the mountaintop but it wasn't there."

It is a real shame what is going on in E. KY and WVA.

Allen

I agree Allen. One of the worst environmental disasters going on right under our noses, but money talks. We need more balance and common sense when it come to land management, here and in the west, but our stellar "leaders" for last 7 years have allowed the extractive corporations to run roughshod. There are a few visionary leaders out there in the industry, but they are few and far between.

I got burned out working the front lines of the natural gas/coalbed methane/uranium/oil shale public lands battle out west, just maintaining the status quo was a victory. Terms like balance, habitat, protection and roadless were jokes among the energy execs.

I can't imagine what the good folks trying to do good out east in the mountains must have to deal with. Top down management tends to leave local voices out of the argument, but the biggest hurdle in eastern KY is a replacement economy. What's the answer?

Kentuckians for the Commonwealth seems to be a good group of people working for a better way of life and balance in Eastern KY. Sign up for their newsletter...

[www.kftc.org]

...and my two cents on this.

Yes, unfortunately there are extreme elements on the left that exaggerate the environmental threats facing us. For example, the idea that the melting of the polar ice caps will raise the seas and flood low lying areas is greatly exaggerated. Any ice floating in the water is already displacing as much water as it's going to ever displace, whether it's solid or liquid.

On the other hand, there are dramatic illustrations of climate change that are too overwhelming to ignore. The most obvious one is the opening of the Northwest Passage, the fabled route north of Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific. For hundreds of years explorers died with their ships locked in the ice of the North Atlantic trying to find a passage that existed, but simply wasn't navigable. Now you can sail right through it in a few weeks no problem. It's not a matter of better navigation or faster boats, it's a matter of missing ice. The changes in this part of the world are completely unprecedented in recorded human history and far too dramatic to ignore.

You can argue that the earth is simply going through some natural cyclical climate change if you want, I'm buying beachfront property in Maine.

Hanley

I've been trying to stay out of these debates, but.....

I doubt that the climate change we are seeing is really unprecedented. If one looks at the Viking exploration and settlement of Iceland and Greenland during the Medival Warm Period, it's apparent that the climate at the time was much milder then than it is even today. Greenland was actually green. The Climate in Western Europe was much like what we see it becoming today.

The real problem is that we really have less than 100 years of hard weather data for most of the world. The North Pole wasn't reached until 1909 and realistic data for both the Artic and Antartic didn't exist until WWII and After. Since the first non Viking expeditions to the area were at the height of the Little Ice Age, it really is hard to say what the Northwest Passage was like during pre Colonial Days. However, there seemed to be a steady trade between the Inuit and Vikings as far north as Ellesmere, which is pretty damn far north.

Sure, Larry. Climate change is not unprecedented. Climatologists aren't saying that it is unprecedented. There are, however, two important points. First, the degree of human influence on climate appears to be unprecedented. Second, major climate changes are catastrophic, and have been in the past. The 'little ice age' was a major disaster associated with decimation of human populations. We tend to look at the disasters of the past with the sense that it won't happen again or, if it does, that we somehow have the technological fixes to deal with it. Recent events, and even the very fact that we seem unable to reduce our CO2 emissions, suggest that is a false sense of security.

Incidentally, the issue about Greenland is not entirely clear for one simple reason: people lie. It is clear that the climate at that time was indeed milder than now. But there also was a habit of explorers to make untruthful reports of the lands that they had found. Looking at any such reports from, e.g., Columbus, John Smith, or Marco Polo will bear this out most obviously. The Vikings also tended to exaggerate the attractiveness of the new lands they sought to colonize in order to attract other colonists. It is highly unlikely that Greenland was very green even during that warming. Certainly, it wasn't greener than Iceland, from where Leif Erikson hoped to attract more colonists.

Chris Schardl

Chris, are you calling the Vikings liars? I've boated with a few of 'em, they seem like stand up folks to me. People from Louisville are just different. Wait, what were we talking about? Damn its hot outside.

Now I've truly heard it all.....LMAO!!



In Anticipation of Precipitation
WaVeY

Oops! Not THOSE Vikings!
On the other hand, yes. I thought we all were liars. I was explicitly told, when I joined the club, that the SOP for whitewater kayaking is: drive to the putin, drive to the takeout, drive to the putin (something like this), put in, paddle, roll, swimm, roll and swimm some more, take out, drive to the campground, prepare a fire, open some beers and drink some, and start with the lies and tall tales. Actually, I have the specific order a bit muddled, and might have forgotten some things, but I do remember lying was a crucial part of it. Don't disillusion me, Brandon!
Chris S

Chris Schardl

PS: sorry about the threadjack. This somehow has become about boating! I blame Larry, though: Northwest passage, Inuit, and all that...
Chris S

Chris Schardl