Wow.... I just finished a 24, and it's not been a fun one in the ER ... but keeping my mind on my work was not easy. I am so happy Steve is OK! To say this story had a profound impact on me is an understatement. Unlike some of you ... fortunately I've never lost a friend to boating. Now I have 2 folks I consider good boating buddies with close calls at Fist ... and both excellent boaters experienced with the rapid ... not sure what Barry's previous experience was suspect it was excellent ... but Steve's experience with that rapid is immense. If I had not taken a friend for a first timers boat yesterday on the Pigeon @ elf ... I would have probably been sitting next to Hugo during all of this cause I'm always up for a second run if others are in ... or since I was boating after work this may have been my first / only run. I cannot imagine what Hugo must have been going through during those intense moments of waiting.

I remember when we swam through the cave a while back ... while in the cave even though it was a perfectly safe and fun experience ... my heart got pumping in the cave b/c all I could think about is what it must be like in there at release! I'm thinking there is no air pocket at release ... never heard of one being there anyway. Maybe Barry can comment on that one.

After reading the account a couple of times ... there is no doubt fatigue was a factor. Complacency? Even though Steve has run Fist 1000 times, I'm sure before this happened he still had plenty of respect for it! Loss of focus ... thinking of something else... the thing that really surprised me about this account is that he thought everything was fine until the last moment ... obviously things happen fast there, even at 300 cfs ... imagine how fast at 800, 1000, more? Is there a level the cave comes out of play? I run the fire escape at 1000 and love it. I wish it could at 800! BTW, can someone tell me at what level is the preferred move left to right and not harry ferry? Brent? Clay? Bueller? I don't have any experience on the RF between 500 and 800.

I think about risk and safety all the time on the river ... especially on difficult or dangerous runs. When we were sitting on the rock after swimming through the cave, I mentioned to Gerald why can't we drop a knotted rope down to the cave entrance from above and secure it above with a piton or nut in the crack? His reply was ... that may work, but don't know what he really thought about it. Or a webbing ladder that climbers use? Could someone entering the cave grab that and just climb up? Personally I think we should try it. It would not make the entrance more dangerous IMO and may save a life. Do we need to organize a workparty to clean out the back door? I don't know anything about the back door ... should we ... or depend on the usual, longer exit?

I thought about what I would have done in the cave if I were in Steve's situation. If I felt relatively safe and secure just hanging out to do all this ... as I got the feeling that Steve did .... I would take off my pfd and skirt. I would use my waist rope to tie to my boat first running the rope through the skirt / pfd. Then I would take the rope bag and swim out. Then get some help to hopefully pull my boat out. You can do this safely b/c there is a large pool below and you really don't need a pfd once you are out of the cave .. you have all the time in the world to swim to the shore or another boat. It may also help to fill the boat with water, and deflate my rear bag to get the boat out. If you couldn't get the boat out, the current is slow enough at that level you could climb the rope back into the cave from below and untie the rope removing that danger from the river. I'm kind of thinking though it would be easier to retrieve the boat from above if you just leave it pinned in the entrance? Again, no experience there ... thoughts?

What about breath holding? Did you guys know you can train yourself to hold your breath, for a very long time ... the current world record is 17 min 4 sec done on Oprah I think in a tank with preoxygenation ... don't know the record without O2. I've started to explore the idea of improving my breath holding even before this happened. I was practicing swimming underwater in the pool in FL for as long as possible just for this reason and have been encouraging Brittany to do the same! I found this article yesterday: [tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com] Certainly improving our breath holding will help us to hang in there for a few more focused roll attempts or help us to have the time to work our way out of a jam before we panic. They say training for this alone is not safe ... what about groups doing this at roll sessions ... just drop down in a circle and watch each other? What about the extreme spare air I mentioned a couple of years ago? I thought about this after spending few tense moments under Braille rock at Climax and in the right pocket ledge hole at Alien Boof on the upper Ocoee. [kayakoutfitting.com] This account at Fist has made me think long and hard about getting one of those ... particularly the idea of ending up in the cave at release with no air pocket.

Finally I can't help but think about an article I read a couple years ago. I can't remember if was a recent, or old issue of AW .. or something on boatertalk ... but anyway, the topic of the article was Class V boating and fitness. The gist of the article was just having the skill to boat class V was not enough! If you choose to boat that level of water ... then for yourself, your family, and your boating buddies you should make some level of commitment to obtain the fitness level required for not only boating class V ... but to help or self rescue when things don't go as planned. That article was a real eye opener for me... as before I read it ... I was basically a finesse / skill boater ... and felt as long as I had the skill to boat the level of water, I could finesse my way through anything. That philosophy is fine until things go wrong. Since I read that article I've gotten very serious about obtaining / maintaining maximum fitness. I've always cycled, but I started running when I can't ride ... what if I have to run out of somewhere for help? I got more serious at the gym re: upper body fitness... and not just paddling specific exercises ... b/c if I had to rescue myself or others I may have to do something beyond basic boating motions .. like climbing a rope overhead or pushing something away from me. Steve seems reasonably fit and most folks I boat with seem to be as well ... but only each of us can answer for ourselves if we are really trying to be fit enough to not only handle the water we are in, but be the best that we can be to rescue ourselves or others when things don't go as planned?

I will also comment on using the RF Gorge as a step up to creekin run. I think anyone with class IV skills is ready for the RF at low flow, provided you are aware of and comfortable with the risk. I have said that before and I stand by it. You should be very comfortable on the Upper Ocoee IMO before you tackle the RF. It is a different kind of boating ...but you will need excellent boat handling skills and there are places you must be precise ... it's not hard to be precise at elf ... but you must be precise! At 300 cfs and below, it's not more difficult to me than the upper Ocoee ... but the consequences can still be there ... not nearly as much as release ... but still potentially deadly. At release you have the push of big water and big gradient and big consequences. I have good lines there so far ... but yes it still scares the crap out of me in some places! For beginner creekin there are safer runs .... like the upper Tellico, Little, lower Big Creek and I'm sure those on this list with more experience creekin than I can name off a bunch more. Go there first unless you are very confident in your skills.

Wes